Fighting a just war against Hamas justly   (13/01/2009)

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Good, but missing more perspective
Thanks for a good discussion on the topic. I wrote a reply on my own site in which I praise R. Hartman for modeling what productive debate looks like, but also disagreeing with his conclusions. http://middleeast.change.org/blog/view/was_the_war_in_gaza_just
Charles, USA, Jan 29 2009 4:10:00:000AM

Thoughtful, but incomplete
I respect the intelligence and seriousness of purpose reflected in this essay, as well as the encouragement of critical engagement. I have little, if any, respect for Hamas, its philosophy, its objectives, or the means that it chooses to effectuate those objectives. I do have sympathy for the plight of those who attempt to eke out a life in the hellhole that is Gaza, and recognize the degree of control that Israel exercises over the economic circumstances of their lives. It seems that any moral analysis of the Gaza campaign must include some consideration of the consequences of Israel`s 40+ year occupation of Gaza, and of the alternatives open to its suffering population. To say that this factor must be considered is not to prejudge the results of that consideration--I certainly would be far more sympathetic to a Gandhian or MLKingian campaign of peaceful civil disobedience (coupled with internal reform and a commitment to bettering the lives of Gaza`s inhabitants from within), than I am to suicide bombings and random firing of rockets into civilian areas of Israel. But the failure of this essay to more fully acknowledge and come to terms with that part of the story leaves the analysis unacceptably incomplete, at least by my lights. Fuller discussion of the morality of returning fire on combatants located within densely populated concentrations of civilians (such as schools and hospital areas), and of the nature of permissible armaments in those circumstances, would also be helpful.
The Wise Bard, USA, Jan 23 2009 1:41:00:000AM

donniel hartman
i am shocked and horrified by what i read here in your article. have you ever visited gaza these past 20 years to truly see how the people have been colonialized and brutally suppressed? i visited and worked there often. i learned their language (as well as yours) so that i can be able to talk to people first hand. after many years of learning, i liken the gazan`s situation to a woman who has been crushed, banished away from her home and beaten brutally her whole life. one day, she screams, "enough!!" and starts wacking the abusive partner back. her blows are comparatively weak but the husband calls in the police force with all their heavy weaponry - this husband then makes sure to convince the courts that the abusive person is the woman. he was "just defending himself from her blows"... the judges all believe him and the abused woman is put in jail. that is what YOU have been doing to gazans their whole existence. they were refuged from their villages in israel in 1948 and with your oppressive rule you humiliated and wounded an entire population. did you donniel ever visit their homes and talk to their people and witness any of this first hand so as to learn? i learned a lot about gazans from my visits over the years. i saw horrifying proof of israeli colonialization first hand that would never reach the israeli press. also over those years i learned that hamas was the only organization out there truly helping the poor. the palestinian authority was too corrupt to focus on the poor, but instead focused on what would make israel happy enough to keep them in power...and their pockets full. so hamas spoke up and said "enough!" just as the abused woman in my metaphor did. the people rallied behind hamas fully. and when they "wacked" back they are called terrorists?? can you please explain this to me? and when you drop bombs on 400 children you call this "honorable and moral defense?". i know you have heard every story coming from the israeli bunkers, but how many of the horror stories coming from the streets of gaza have you heard these past few weeks? have you heard of the baby that had it`s 2 arms and one leg amputated? have you heard about the mother that lost her 5 daughters? have you heard about the little boy that is now blind? we are talking about over 400 cases of dead children. we are talking about thousands of kids who have serious injuries, who are lying without water, food, clothing, in the cold of winter, with no protection. no medicine to ease their pain as the blood drips out of their bodies. no mom and dad around as the chaos is huge. they are crying at night with no blankets in hospitals, schools, shivering and weeping. if you don`t know these stories it is because you do not want to know. just as many do not want to know the stories of your holocaust, you also do not want to learn about real pain that you are inflicting on babies, mothers, fathers, grandfathers and grandmothers. i am very disappointed in your institute`s stand on this situation. i was hoping when going onto your webiste that you would have the "one moral voice" that the prophets had in the bible. but your article shows me that you are not a beacon of light as the prophets were but a follower of the shouts of the blood thirsty rabble. i am very sad today after reading your article. but i will continue to look for those "prophets of old" among the jewish people in israel. they existed in the bible and i know they exist today somewhere. i hope you will engage with me in conversation as this is a hard conversation to have. but a necessary one if you are to call yourself a spiritual leader.
vera, usa, Jan 21 2009 10:33:00:000AM

Coherence
Let us search for the correct way from now on. The Palestinian leaders so far have not rejected the armed resistance, and the means of terror. The Israeli leaders have not shown enough understanding, mercy and willing care for the oppressed Palestinians. Accidentally, the few Palestinians are oppressing the many Palestinians. In the politics of fear, Palestinians are not free to analyze this sad affair. The disingenuous alliance with the Iranian rulers denies the Palestinians the freedom. Too many Israelis are not fair. Benny Morris analyzed the past, and he could propose a new relationship. The main article and the comments contain very little positive proposals. The tender care between Israelis and Palestinians must be nurtured, to make peace and to block the influence of the Iranian Supreme Misleader.
NoToOppression, USA, Jan 21 2009 8:08:00:000AM

er... morality?
This article is fatally flawed because it uses religion to determine morality. It also does a great disservice to Judaism by lumping in Israeli (i.e. state) interests as being the same as Jewish interests. Morally justifying a war in the name of religion and using religous teachings to work out how one should act during war is wrong. I can`t work out which is worse, a holy war or a war that is based on purely state interests. Israel does have a right to defend itself, but this was not a defensive action, it was not sanctioned by the UN - it was a unilateral and aggressive pre-emptive strike, which even by the author`s definition is immoral. The author would do well to read his own Gideon Levy and at least be honest! A state cannot wreak that type of havoc and then claim the moral high ground. I think the writer`s concept of morality is truly revealed when he tells his son to, "shoot first, ask questions later". Nice.
Tim, Australia, Jan 20 2009 3:50:00:000PM

strengthening negotiating position not justifiable
I follow your arguments so long as your premise of self-defence holds true, however, where the apparent ultimate aim is to force the representative leadership of the Gazan Palestinians (whether Hamas or another) to negotiate seriously to reach a stable and arrangement free of armed conflict, moreover, to strengthen our negotiating position so as to dictate the terms of such an agreement, it is not so clear that war, and especially war which has horrendous "collateral" effects, is justifiable. This war was a continuation of the preceding policy (the blockade) in order to bring a humbled Hamas to the negotiating table. The problem of Israeli conduct in the war is thus subsiduary to an aim for which the use of war may be possible but is no longer (in the current international concensus) just or justifiable. The immediate raison d`etre (self-defence) holds little water, when negotiations with Hamas (albeit indirectly) preceded the war, and when the war preparations must have run parallel to those negotiations (such that their sincerity can be questioned, especially when negotiations were taken up again during the latter stages of the war, and, presumably will continue after it). No matter how much one splits hairs over the conduct of the war, the claim that it was in "self-defence" remains problematic within the context of the wider aim in this wider perspective.
iandl, Europe, Jan 20 2009 2:39:00:000PM


The author would have us believe that the morality of this war (if you must insist on calling it that) can be justified simply by applying the maxim that "If someone comes to kill you, arise and kill them first". It is an exceptionally facile way of justifying the killing of hundreds of innocent people, the destruction not only of life but the capacity for generations to live healthy and fruitful lives in the future. Do the Rabbis teach “arise and kill everyone in sight”? Do the Rabbis teach “arise and destroy schools, hospitals and vital infrastructure”? Do the Rabbis give guidance on who the “them” is, or warn against the danger of using such terminology? Do the Rabbis ever ponder why someone might want to come and kill? Do the Rabbis consider that Hamas might live by the same maxim and that by attempting to justify this war as ‘morally right’ on the same basis will only ever lead to more death, more destruction, more hostility? The article perpetuates the same simplistic and ignorant logic which will see violence continue to be the common discourse in Israel and Palestine for generations. If you can find a moral basis for Israel’s actions in Palestine then you are no better than Hamas. It doesn’t take five pages of misguided diatribe to make that point. exceptionally facile way of asserting a moral basis for the killing of innocents Israel`s actions but is is exceptionally blinkered and simplistic in its assessment - and therefore flawed. Do the Rabbis teach that if someone comes to kill you, arise and kill everyone within shooting distance? arise and destroy
Julian, Australia, Jan 19 2009 9:11:00:000PM

Martin Luther King
I think that one flaw in this argument is the assumption that bombs are an effective weapon in the conflict. They may seem to work in the short term, but what about the long term? Martin Luther King wrote in Strength to Love: Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. . . . The chain reaction of evil—hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars—must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.”
Jenny, USA, Jan 19 2009 4:33:00:000AM

To Jake ("What about diplomacy?")
Allow me to correct you: the ceasefire had been broken by Hamas`s starting to shoot missiles into southern Israel (there wasn`t really a "starting point," as you would have missiles fired into Israel every once in a while in the first days of ceasefire`s end). As to your mentioning of "a period of relative calm"--first, there`s nothing calm about a "relative calm" second, during the mentioned period, Palestinian children were continuing to watch TV shows explaining how to get rid of the Zionist enemy, our captive soldier Gilad Shalit was still being held captive (and he is still being held captive), and the Iranian television was depicting IDF officers as busy with plucking out the eyes of Arab kinds. And that, after the Israeli society has undergone a series of painful processes of withdrawing from pieces of land (the same areas from which rockets have been fired, just for you to know), and after hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, some of them responsible for deaths prisoners, have been released. “So what,” you’d say, “by fighting you haven’t been able to release your soldier, nor to prevent Palestinian children from watching Mickey Mouse dressed up as a Shahid or Iran from supplying arms to Hamas”--but such an argument is NOT TO EXCUSE EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS, or stand as proof of Israel’s mistake in taking military actions against Hamas. True, Israel would always be looked at as the aggressor, as the invader, as the taker, and the unifying idea behind that would always be that it would have been much better had “Israel’s aggression” in the wars fought by it been subdued by the “legitimate resistance” of the Arab world. What is also true though is that “post-“ or “anti-” Zionism is an old firm trading under a new name: “Antisemitism.” It has never really gone anywhere, it is just that it has become much more sophisticated: Iran doesn’t want to destroy Israel but just the “Zionist entity”; the now proverbial in-blood-and-fire-we-will-redeem-Palestine sentiment peaceably expressed by Hamas is the new Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Very convenient positions indeed. Peace is never to be put in quotation marks. Nor Israel.
An Israelian, , Jan 18 2009 5:34:00:000PM

Moral Rationalizations
> "..As our rabbis teach us: im ba l`horgicha, hashkem l`horgo (BT Sanhedrin 72a). If someone comes to kill you, arise and kill them first. Self defense under these circumstances is not viewed as a necessary evil but as a moral requirement..." < If this is truly what the rabbis teach then it is no wonder why Israel may always have a difficult time finding peace. The alternative to killing another in ones own "self defense" is not suicide! How about if Israel apply some of this "deep and thoughtful analysis" to the reasons and history behind the circumstances that lead others to attack it? War does not spontaneously erupt out of just and peaceful circumstance! And even if it`s war were only on account of "self defense" how many MORE "terrorists" has Israel created by the killing of more than 300 children?
David, US, Jan 18 2009 3:36:00:000AM

donnie hartman blog
unfortunately what a misleading comments. there is no place in your torah says you as zionist and jews are allowed to kill innocent civilians the palestimians whom you stole their land. your are natiobn of settlers from europe.you want hamas to recognise you as israel, but why dont you recognise the palestinians whom when you came there in 1940 those were the indigineous people living there. you are using holocaust and antisemitism as an excuse to curb criticism of the zionist policies. if a palestinians is not living in peace you zionist and jews will never have peace. the world opinion is against you, and you have seen the demonstaration all over the world. you are stubbon nation when moses took you from egypt you dis obeyed him and your god. me as a muslim i know youe characters, you will only fool your friends in america and urope who blindly supports you to commit atrocities. you a nation of murderers. Like you friends in USA who murdered who murdered milions of red indians.
mahmud ali, tanzania, Jan 16 2009 8:54:00:000PM

moral war parallelism
If Hostages are held at a bank robbery, will the police go inside, kill hostages and thieves alike and recover money or will they go by diplomatic ways by which they can save the hostages? I guess the second option Similar is the case where hamas (thieves) have held hostages (babies, kids,women and men) but, Israel (police) goes and kills everyone alike! Shame on you
tepp, Qatar, Jan 15 2009 1:46:00:000PM

Obligatory and Moral War
Truly an outstanding and sophisticated analysis of the crisis at hand, a remarkably well thought out plea that I believe truly counters the critics, but takes their azharot and complaints into consideration. I will use this piece in myh classes on Jewish ethics, with my congregation and in dialogue with those that would have Israel commit suicide. Yishar Kocah Rabbi Donniel
Jonathan Seidel, USA, Jan 15 2009 10:40:00:000AM

Gaza war
Dear Rabbi As you acknowledge, this war would be utterly indefensible if it was really being fought to express Israeli popular frustration and to improve the standing of Israeli politicians. But as it becomes clear that the war cannot gain any protection from rockets that could not otherwise have been obtained by negotiation, and that it has strengthened Hamas politically (Fatah is finished), your own argument shows that it is an unjust (not to mention incredibly stupid) war.
Jonathan Simon, USA, Jan 15 2009 10:26:00:000AM

What about diplomacy?
I sincerely appreciate this thoughtful analysis of a tragic situation. But I have to ask: was peace ever truly given a chance? A four month ceasefire, a period of relative calm, was broken not by Hamas but by Israel on November 4through an incursion into Gaza that resulted in the deaths of 6 Hamas gunmen. It was at this point that violence in the region again spiraled out of control. Is it a just cause to fight a war that didn`t have to be, justified by violence that was arguably triggered by the violation of a ceasefire that had been agreed upon, albeit unoffically, by both parties?
Jake Almason, USA, Jan 15 2009 6:04:00:000AM

Immoral War
By definition, there can be no morality in war. War is ALWAYS about the stronger subduing the weaker. The reasons for coming to this point of engagement are not as important to the subject of survival as the survival or the removal of a threat to survival itself. Moral high ground gives way to your army being 6 feet under in low ground. When pushed to self-defensive action, as the IDF has been, and when fighting irregulars, decorum and genility take a back seat -- a FAR back seat. Just as the Palestinians claim that ALL Israelis are "just" targets becaus they support the IDF and most are a sometimes active part of it, so too the moral equivalence reflects back to the Gazans who voted the irregulars of this terrorist organiztion into power. They, then, are similarly tainted with the casus belli of their agent and thus are liable and individually responsible for the expected reaction which has come, in my opinion, so late after it ought to have. The Hamas leaders may indulge their fantasies of murdering our people, but as soon as the first rocket was so wantonly fired into a sovereign country NOT under their control, they and their electors could legitimately expect to eventually be called upon to pay the price. It is indeed a shame that children and other innocent people are offered up to the Israeli self-defense action, but it was the Palestinian choice to put their children and other innocents in harm`s way. For the world to decry this IDF action is a red-herring and a detriment to having this operation result in Israeli citizens being able to live without fear from these hooligans. Playing word games with terms like "morality" is nice for armchair discussion, but for survival, sometimes you have take the toys away from the irresponsible children, before they hurt themselves or others. Israelis citizens have been hurt enough. It is time to tak the toys of war of the irresponsible children away.
Les Lieberman, USA, Jan 14 2009 9:19:00:000PM

Moral War
Thank you for the subtle, honest discussion. You have helped me get a better grasp of the issues with great sensitivity.
Marc Mayerson, US, Jan 13 2009 8:49:00:000PM

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