Religious Zionist soldiers must swear allegiance to army, State, or stay out of IDF   (16/11/2009)

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@Mr Hartmann, These religious soldiers are not masochistic Why would they expell parents ,friends or even themselves from their homes ??? One says you CANNOT get butter and the amount of money for it ,you have to choose .... And this choice in in the hands of the government! Besides,keeping Judea and Samaria makes Israel complete and prevents Gush Dan from being kassamized ! Shavua Tov,
Trumpeldor, , Nov 23 2009 9:24:00:000AM

A Practical and Zionist Proposal
"[N]ot only must the army be free from pursuing internal political debates," agreed, but it must be free from implementing today`s results from an unfinished national political debate. The army is to defend Israel and its citizens, not to carry out eviction orders. The elected government already has a force for carrying out laws amongst its citizens -- the police. Leaving aside whether it makes any Zionist sense for the Israeli Police Force to evict Jews, it is certainly clear that it weakens the army to misuse it in place of the police. Members of Knesset including Tzipi Hotobeli of the governing Likud party have proposed a law of practical solution -- The Unity of the Army Law. I heartily recommend your supporting practical solutions that prevent religious strife from the beginning, strengthen the rule of civilian law, and reaffirm the choice of all Jews who volunteer their lives to the I.D.F.
Tom Harris, Israel, Nov 22 2009 9:27:00:000PM

On the Contrary
Shalom-- Suppose the army forced one to do forbidden labor on Shabbat, or eat unkosher food. Should a soldier acquiecsce in the name of "preserving democracy" or some other idea? No, of course not. It must be made clear to all that evicting Jews is forbidden, and that a soldier MUST refuse such orders, just as he should refuse orders to eat pork. The fact that the dati leumi world was split about this issue (which shouldn`t have been an issue at all) spelled disaster for Gush Katif. In addition, I for one see the regime itself as a clear and present danger to Klal Yisrael. In fact, if refusal to carry out immoral and forbidden orders facilitates the downfall of the regime, Klal Yisrael will certainly not be the poorer for it.
Micha, Israel, Nov 22 2009 6:09:00:000PM

HARTMEN AGENDA
There is always someone with a kippa that will play up to the anti religious. The self hating Jews love that!
cathy porter, usa, Nov 21 2009 5:35:00:000PM

soldiers and orders
Dr. Hartman is wrong in asserting that orders from above must be followed blindly. This was what the Nazis taught and this theory was dismissed at Nuremeberg. if soldiers feel that any order givne by their superiors are illegal . they should not follow them. Hence, the quesiton is not whether a soldier is a conscientious objector or not ,but whether any future decision by any government to evacuate some parts of Jehuda veshomron will bring the nation into greater danger.
moshe dick, usa, Nov 19 2009 9:01:00:000PM

Religious Zionism
Donny We join the army to protect and defend our nation, not to be police officers, that is simply the way it is. Since the percentage of religious zionists in combat and elite units is on the rise, maybe the "State" should rethink their policies, and put defending the country and peoples lives as a priority and not politics. Imagine the IDF without these fine soldiers, not a pretty picture and for that matter, a much weaker army. You choose, a strong Israel with a strong Jewish identity, or the alternative, which is exactly what our enemies want.
Marc, Israel, Nov 19 2009 4:03:00:000PM

no nationalism at all??
The army must NOT be free from pursuing internal political debates, it must pursue diligently national interests with full force. Those who love this country need not fear the self hating criticism, the just conquests in wars of defense of the state of Israel need not be dealt with in consideration of further threats of terrorist violence. This is the traditional mandate of Zionism, redemption of the land, protecting and increasing it`s settlement, not capitulation to any threats or attacks, This is the direction all loyal armies lead their country. Those who lack the conviction to pursue faithfully deflecting enemy subterfuge of the development of our land,should reconsider the level of their own patriotism!!!
shmuel oliven, Israel, Nov 18 2009 8:40:00:000PM

Allegiance of Soldiers
Mr. Hartman contends that soldiers, who for religious reasons, refuse to evacuate Jews from settlements endanger both the democratic character and the security of the state. I think he misses the point. The halachic prohibition against evacuating Jewish population stems not from a theological or biblical sources but from the more immediate imperative of Pikuach Nefesh. Rambam writes in Hilchot Shabbat that if the enemy draws close to the border and demands even as little as a haystack on the Jewish side of the border all Jewish men of arms must mobilize EVEN ON SHABBAT. Rambam`s reasoning - because if they are not stopped at the border the entire land lays open to them and lives will be endangered. This would apply whether in Israel, or any independent entity governed by Jews in the diaspora. Thus, these courageous young men refuse to obey orders that directly put the lives of Jews in danger. Proof is self evident - 10,000 jews were ethnicly cleansed from Gaza, and we received 10,000 missiles in return. We evacuated South Lebanon and now face an existential threat from Hizbollah weapons of mass desctruction.
Moshe Morgenstern, USA, Nov 17 2009 3:12:00:000AM

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