Using ‘Prepared Scripts’ After Gaza Flotilla Seizure Perpetuates Hateful Rhetoric   (31/05/2010)

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Decency
Decency on both sides? Why not ? We understand what this would mean from the israeli side. I would be very interested in understanding what, from n Hartman’s point of view, this would mean from the arab and Palestinian side in general and from the hamas side in particular. Does this “decency” include recognizing the right for Israel to exist? Giving up terrorism? Giving up media hatred? Giving up revising history? Acceptance of a reasonable peace? Why not? How about having the hamas destroy its racist covenant for a starting point? Who would negotiate with an enemy whose ideology is so similar to mein kamp? Not me.
Pat, USA, Jul 24 2010 10:58:00:000PM

Israeli-Other dialogue
I am an American "honorary Jew" (My wife is Jewish, my daughter is Jewish, "and some of my best friends...." (Actually true). As I entered the Jewish Community more intimately (am a psychoanalyst also) I was impressed with the moral standards of fairness, openness, and concern for ALL humans of all shades and belief systems that are such a profound part of Jewish standards and beliefs. It pains me when those principles are applied less steadfastly towards the Palestinians. When that is the case. I think I understand the vulnerability of Israelis, and the inevitable reactions and feelings to centuries of mindless and heartless and sadistic behavior of those in power. But for the past fifty years or so, Israel has NOT been helpless. Centuries of feelings don`t change in decades, but please keep trying to continue to lead the world in relatively bias-less concern and behavior towards all humans, even those who are or seem less ethically committed.
George Hartlaub, U.S., Jun 22 2010 8:53:00:000PM

bad strategy executed in even worse manner
as a Turk who believes in Israel`s right to exist and live peacefully I just cannot understand how such a clueless operation be sanctioned by IDF. if it was in Israel`s interest to halt the flotila then why did they just not wait for it to enter Israeli waters, send navy divers, disable the vehicles propulsion and then tug them to where ever the IDF wanted. zero deaths, zero wounded on boat. no beaten commandos. no PR disaster, lots of frustration for the activists, mission accomplished! furthermore think of this. if some of the people on board were truely militants (instead of pissed off activists) and the ship had weapon stashes on board (instead of kitchen knives and whatever was available on the deck) what would have happened if someone on the boat pulled out an RPG and fired on the hovering helicopter. at that distance you cant miss. all commandos dead, dozens if not hundreds civilians killed and/or maimed. good luck cleaning that up. the raid was a very very bad strategy executed in even worse manner...
Omer, Turkey, Jun 3 2010 9:54:00:000PM

Decency on both sides?
No doubt "decency can be found on both sides." We hear the voice of decency constantly on Israel`s side, but it`s hard to hear its voice on the other side. The few Muslim voices of decency are forced into hiding by the Muslim mainstream. They do not/cannot represent their people, who wish to murder/silence them! There simply is no decent voice with which we can talk / reason / negotiate.
Scott Sobel, USA, Jun 3 2010 11:49:00:000AM

Language and Sources in Conflict
The conversation about language continues ... thanks for adding to this important dialogue. I`ve linked to you and a few others here in my roundup of the use of language and sources in describing the conflict: http://alisonramer.com/2010/06/02/lynch-attack-and-massacre-shooting-down-words-in-international-waters/
Alison Avigayil Ramer, Israel, Jun 3 2010 10:32:00:000AM

AGRESSION
I beleive Isrelis should simply disregard provocational media and so called world critisizm because majority are definetely against Israel. For the critics Iwould ask if anihilation of such flotilla a better outcome then killing nine people carrying guns and attacking army.
Silly, USA, Jun 3 2010 8:55:00:000AM

"Prepared Scripts"
I am amazed that several of those commenting are doing so from the same "prepared scripts" that Rabbi Hartman noted in his essay. As a middle-aged American Jew, I have become more and more troubled by the dehumanization of Arabs by the average JEw, as well as the organized Jewish community. We Jews once proudly noted that, as badly behaved as our enemies might be, we would always stand on the moral high ground. It is unfortunate that so many of our people have lowered the moral high ground to a point where the often stand at eye level with those we condemn. For those who think the Israeli blockade of Gaza is moral, or that Israel allows all humanitarian aid into Gaza, kindly look at the facts of what few items Israel actually allows to pass over the border. I am a major supporter of Israel; but Israel has lost its moral compass, and we must help find it.
Jeffrey, USA, Jun 3 2010 7:23:00:000AM

problem after problem
Sometimes one may think and come to the conclusion that mother nature should should just remove the human from the earth and start with something fresh that would really appreciate the beauty the earth really has to give.We all forget that we are just visitors here. God and mother nature has given us all temporary passage on this planet floating in the universe.
Francis Black, USA, Jun 3 2010 2:36:00:000AM

It Takes Two To Have a Dialogue
Thank you Donniel for your braveness. Above and beyond the assault of the flotilla, the question is if the blockade of Gaza is justified. Is collective punishment a legitimate mean to make politics? Finally, let me recommend you an article by David Grossman that sheds some light in the midst of so much propaganda and counter-propaganda: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-attack-isral-declined
Oriol Poveda, Germany, Jun 2 2010 1:29:00:000PM

Liberal Hope
I just want to say that I am sorry for the losses on both sides of this incident and the unexplainable pain and grief it causes the families of those fallen and also the anger it arouses in others. As a German American, my family arrived to the United States sometime in the 19th century. As such, I cannot fully empathize with the particular pain felt by someone with a different history, namely a Jewish or Palestinian person and the unhealed wounds that an event like this pokes at. However, I have found that I share hopes with people from various backgrounds from the standpoint that I also feel pain and I am also susceptible to cruelty, although of a different kind. Also, like Mr Hartman, I share a commitment to international peace allthough the current language we use to make sense of things like this seems to prevent us from eventually achieving this peace. I refuse to engage in the inflammatory rhetoric that I find does nothing to vanquish my personal pain nor the pain of the families scarred by this event. I wish to adopt a rhetoric of hope not simply as a campaign slogan but as an honest commitment to our children that a better life is possible.
Jordan, United States, Jun 2 2010 2:02:00:000AM

Not Piracy
This was not an act of piracy. International law allows for naval blockades to be carried out in international waters, as this one was. If the people on the flotilla simply wanted to deliver goods to Gaza they would have gone to Ashdod as instructed and unloaded the items there for delivery, as happens every week. Instead they wanted violence, and they got it.
Susan, USA, Jun 1 2010 11:57:00:000PM

decency and perspectives...
First of all, a rational person should employ logic. There is a fact named `international maritime law` which is probably the oldest accepted international legal document. according to law, whatever your reason to approach a ship in `international waters`, you doNOT have any right to assault in any way. This action is called `piracy` in law. The right conduct is to ask permission from the `legal counterpart` who is captain, to board the ship. in this case the captain is beaten to death when refused to turn control of the wheel and mentions legal obligation of attackers. Second, even if israeli soldiers donot respect the law, the fact that they started their approach to fire warning shots and fume-grenades before their embarkation is an open invitation to a `self defence` of this civilians who are a under threat of death. Third, the essense of the problem is again illegal occupation of palestine territory and blockade of gaza `ghetto`. This itself a criminal activity in defiance of UNSC resolutions which state of israel have no interest to take it seriously. (around 100 resolutions are disgarded by now). Now, any resonable and little bit legally literate person understands that there will be a flow of legal action against israel state and politicians which will claim the legal rights of the victims. Legal compensation of kidnapping, detention and imprisonment of 700 people would be enough to disable israeli politicians and soldiers to enter `civilised` countries.
Turuman, Turkey, Jun 1 2010 10:37:00:000PM

The Truth
There will be many stories today regarding the naval incident in the Mediterranean Sea yesterday involving the Israeli Defense Forces and a number of pro-Palestinian activists. A lot of these stories will be coming from left-of-center outlets which will condemn Israel. If you are like me, you are sick and tired of listening to moralizing Europeans telling lies and half-truths. These people, from the “Continent of Death”, have no right to moralize. It is sad when people die, but these deaths did not have to happen. Israel warned the ships not to try to run the blockade. Instead, all that the ships had to do was dock at the Israeli port of Ashdod and allow Israel to inspect the cargo to insure that there were no weapons on board. Israel guaranteed that the non-weapon cargo (i.e., the humanitarian aid) would then be allowed to enter the Gaza Strip. Israel has every right to do this since the Gaza Strip is controlled by a terrorist entity, Hamas. The world should be asking the following questions: 1. Why were the ships attempting to run the blockade if their cargo would have been allowed to enter the Gaza Strip via a land route? 2. Why were the ships carrying armed individuals if in fact these people were “peace activists”? 3. Why were many European countries and leftists so quick to condemn Israel before allowing all of the facts to come to view? 4. What will President Barack Hussein Obama do, considering his past Israeli agenda? We must be vigilant with regard to the mistruths that the media and certain left-leaning individuals will be espousing over the coming days. When you see these mistruths on internet articles, respond to these blogs with the truth. Do not allow the left to win this war of words.
Arthur Werner, USA, Jun 1 2010 5:47:00:000PM

The response of israel is not the point
Israel as is oft quoted won the battle and lost the war. Stuck in old paradigms may result in operational success but do they achieve the ultimate goal. The goal should not have beento defend the gaza border. Surely not in this operation loaded as it was with press and people of so called conscience. The boats firstly should have been disabled or redirected without being boarded. This was all about PR and Media. ANd Israel flunked the test. Their leaders proved to be dull witted and inflexible and sadly destructive.
david, australia, Jun 1 2010 11:49:00:000AM

Peace
I agree that it is time to say, "enough" and it is time for decent people to stop the violence. If Hamas fires rockets into Israel, then they are violent aggressors, but if Israel shoots and kills civilians in international waters, then they have become the violent aggressor. Neither is acceptable. The only way to stop the violence is for decent people on both sides to stop the violent zealots on their own side from starting more violence. When a person condones violence, they perpetuate the cycle of violence. It may be hard for Israelis to accept, but your country has just committed violent acts in your name. You can still be proud of the people of Israel, but you must speak out against the killing.
eikonos, Canada, Jun 1 2010 11:39:00:000AM

Inappropriate response
This article is profoundly inappropriate. This is precisely what the meraglim did. Look at their report. They didn`t say anything bad. Just the facts. Objective. `Here`s what we saw, now you, Am Yisrael, judge for yourselves.` And when they did so, they turned the question of how to enter the land into a question of whether to enter. Standing back is taking a stand. This isn`t a time to stand back and ask everyone to put their emotions on hold as the UN produces one report, the IDF another, and then they yell at each other for another year. Every person with a head on their shoulders knows that facts must be assessed. So what`s Hartman`s chidush? The article is a license for more doubt and less identification with Israel. Our model is the response of Kalev and Yehoshua. Kalev went to Chevron, Kalev identified with the Avot and Eretz Yisrael. Kalev responded to the spies, saying `We can do it!` That`s the first thing: believe in ourselves. After that`s established, then we can talk about what we can do better. This is an opportunity for Jews to choose: Do you identify with Israel or not?
Meir, Israel, Jun 1 2010 10:25:00:000AM

"Prepared Scripts" and Gaza Flortilla
I am not sure I understand on what basis you believe it to be "completely irrelevant" to the "international community and press ... whether the commandos were fired upon, beaten and stabbed". I`ve just had a look at plenty of English-language press, broadcasting and news agency websites. They all report that the commandos were attacked (not "fired upon", however) and they all appear to consider this "relevant" information. Furthermore, they report the Israeli prime minister`s statements in Canada and various other Israeli government claims that the "commandos" acted justifiably. Nevertheless, the "international press" also reports that quite a few passengers on the flotilla were shot dead. And no one seems to be arguing that these people were carrying guns. So the evidence does seem to suggest that several people without guns (yes, individuals who may have sincerely regarded themselves as peace activists) were shot and killed by other people with guns. Is it so very unreasonable, therefore, for terms such as "murder", "massacre" and "disproportionate force" to be used? To you perhaps it all looks like an artificial, staged "unanimous condemnation" scripted behind the scenes by Israel`s enemies. And that certainly would be a good way of describing some criticisms of Israel. But in this case, on the basis of what has been reported, I am sorry to say that terms such as "murder" and "disproportionate force" do not seem unreasonable. Far from making things up according to "prepared scripts", the media appear to be waiting for information - from Israel. All of the hundreds of people on the boats, citizens of quite a few countries, have been taken to Ashdod. So far, no one has heard anything from them. On the other hand, we have heard from the Israeli authorities - they are quoted as stating that the flotilla passengers will either be arrested and prosecuted in Israel or "deported". That, at present, seems to be all we know.
James Baaden, London, Jun 1 2010 3:55:00:000AM

Piracy
There is no doubt that Israel committed a terrible crime. There is no dispute about the ships location. They were in international waters. Any effort to board the ships is an act of piracy. If Israel was innocent, why did it act under the cover of darkness and jam the ships communications? The commandos were carrying weapons, not roses. They are guilty of piracy, murder and kidnapping. The time honored "we are innocent victims acting in self defense" isn`t going to fly" this time. I am ashamed as an American because the US underwrites Israel. I thank God I wasn`t born into the culture of Zionism. It is morally bankrupt.
David, USA, Jun 1 2010 3:36:00:000AM

loss of life
Turkish Erdogan party is losing its majority position in Turkey. Opposition is bigger than it. This is why he resorted to all sorts of tricks more or less canning however, to somehow build important causes around his "ideas". This includes building ties with Iran and Syria, to promote so-called "dialogs" with the West of these terrorist states, attempting to piss into the West pocket with Iran nuke-swap deal and to claim it is raining; now organizing this Gaza-bound provocation. Hurrying, with not even a single second reserved for understanding of what actually had happened, they 1. Recall ambassador from Israel 2. Force his government-run air company to cut ties with Israeli El-Al 3. Call for UN Security Council urgent session where Turkey - so conveniently - has a rotating membership. All of the goons that attacked Israeli Navy solders were Turkish from IHH, a facade of different islamist outfits organized during Bosnia war to run jihad against Christian Bosnian population. They had weapons to do their job. Too bad - they failed in general; although several of our boys were wounded. Overall, great operation IDF. There are still some who do not cave into islamists tricks, unlike European soon-to-be-Khaliphat states.
Alex, US, Jun 1 2010 1:50:00:000AM

Despondency
`It is time for all those of decency to declare, "Enough" says Donniel Hartman. But I fear this time is over. It`s impossible to dialogue with Israeli hawks who are incorrigible warmongers.
Estelle Aquino, Brazil, Jun 1 2010 12:40:00:000AM

flotilla
Since when is the Hartman Institute part of "Peace Now" - which is ready to sacrifice Israel`s security for the appearance of "even-handedness." Donniel repeats "if" "if" "if" - as if there is any question that this flotilla was anything but a staged incident designed to provoke anti-Israel sentiment, and create a negative pr disaster for Israel. The sponsors were clearly not human rights activists interested in peace, but al Queida, Hamas and others who wanted to provoke violence to embarrass Israel. I am shocked and dismayed at Donniel`s naivete.
Rabbi Dov Peretz Elkins, USA, May 31 2010 7:22:00:000PM

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