Haredi School Fight Undermines Israeli Democracy   (17/06/2010)

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real issue - Supreme Court attacks civil liberties
Its not the orthodox that attacks democracy, its the Supreme Court. Every person should have the right to educate their kids at home if they feel that the local school doesn`t live up to personal educational requirements. What secular people dont understand is that when there will be a religious Supreme Court, then their kids will be the ones forced to attend religious schools using the same abuse of judicial power that was excercised in this case. Its your anger and hatred against the chareidim which blinds your eyes to this miscarriage of justice. Otherwise, you would be out there marching with them as should be the case.
Lemmings Hotline, sd usa, Jul 5 2010 2:35:00:000AM


When the going gets tough -- say Iran obtains "the bomb" and continually threatens to use it -- who is more likely to flee the country - a state-educated secularist, or a yeshiva-educated ultra-Orthodox citizen?
Alex Weiss, Israel, Jul 1 2010 6:05:00:000AM

Future of Israel
All Jews should read Josephus Flavious who described how the Jews destroyed Israel from within. History appears to be repeating itself.
a. spector, canada, Jun 30 2010 5:47:00:000PM

Undermines israeli democracy or Israeli existence?
Israel can exist without a democracy. In fact Israel will be far better off as a religious state.
Aron, USA, Jun 27 2010 5:52:00:000AM

Two suggestions
First, funding for higher education shouldn`t be content-neutral. It is the State`s responsibility to allocate resources towards those areas that will benefit the State and its economic, spiritual, cultural, and academic growth. If we need to incentivize more engineers and fewer Talmudists, the State needs to be able to adjust funding levels. It`s also worth noting that less incentive is required for advanced degrees that have strong earning potential, and vice-versa. Second, Israel has failed to articulate a narrative and a set of values that truly reflect all of its citizens. Both Hareidim and Israeli Arabs are excluded from the Jewish-Zionist narrative and don`t share (and often oppose!) its values. A single educational system that serves ALL Israeli citizens fairly and with dignity is out of reach until we have a county that serves all of its citizens, embraces and dignifies their identities, and weaves their competing narratives together. The notion of a single state for all of its citizens makes more and more sense to me with each passing year.
Isaac Shalev, USA, Jun 25 2010 7:54:00:000PM

Emanuel
Isn`t the root of the problem the secular antipathy toward religion that led to a religious war of survival by the very orthodox.The "circle the wagons" mentality is a reaction.There is distrust of the intentions of the "core curriculum".It would help solve the problem if the Moderate Orthodox had more passion and could keep their own children observant.If the Zionist orthodox were stronger, they would have a moderating effect on this war.
L. Oberstein, USA, Jun 25 2010 1:22:00:000PM

Not only the Haredim
Racism is rampant in Israel. If the supreme court rule were applied to the parents of every school tht limits students to enter most of th ecountry would be in jail. For example the Ethiopians are frequently descriminated against by many of the same people that rail with righteous indignation against teh haredim.
Tamara Edell Gottstein, Israel, Jun 25 2010 9:32:00:000AM

This is about judaism vs. secularism
The values that have kept the Jewish people alive for thousands of years are the authentic Torah traditions that are currently embodied by the Haredi and Dati-Leumi Jews in israel. There were no core courses taught by secular humanists in Judea, Babylon, Spain, and Europe. Our survival depends remain true to Hashems authentic torah and faith.
Shmuel Nagid, U.S.A, Jun 24 2010 11:00:00:000PM

what about israeli-arabs?
I wonder whether Donniel would speak out with the same passion against those Israeli-Arab leaders who take positions against the survival of the State and/or who meet with those in neighboring countries who actively seek out the destruction of the state of Israel. Shall the state of Israel continue to allow such behavior?
Edmund Winter, USA, Jun 23 2010 9:04:00:000PM


I 100% AGREE WITH YOUR PAPER. THE BIG QUESTION IS WHETHER SUPPORTERS OF YOUR POSITION IN THE KNESSET HAVE THE WILL AND THE POWER TO STOP THE GIVE AWAYS. IF NOT, THE GREATIVITY THAT HAS BEEN ISRAEL`S GREAT ECONOMIC STRENGTH WILL WITHER AWAY AS THE UNEDUCATED ULTRA-OTHODOX MATAURE INTO NARROW MINDDED, UNEDUCATED, BIGOTED ADULTS WITH NO ABILITY OR TO FUNCTION IN THE WORLD THAT LIES AHEAD. THIS COULD LEAD TO THE END OF ISRAEL, OR ITS DEGENERATION INTO A THIRD RATE SOCIETY. SO SAD. SO YOUR THESIS IS RIGHT--TIME FOR THE GOOD PEOPLE TO BECOME MILITANTL--STOP THE GIVE AWAYS THAT THREATEN THE SOCIETY. TO THE STREETS IF NECESSARY.
DICK GJUNTHER, U SA, Jun 23 2010 7:38:00:000PM

You missed the point
You seemed to get the point when you wrote: "The fact is that Israel`s Supreme Court cannot win the battle on this front against the Ultra-Orthodox. All that the families of Emmanuel have to do is to force the police to arrest and incarcerate a sufficiently large enough number of people, and to bring massive demonstrations out into the streets which will cause unmanageable turmoil. After a few days of this, a so-called compromise will be found which in essence will require the Supreme Court either to back down or turn a blind eye to the actions resulting from its ruling. The citizens of Israel will learn once again that this is a country not ruled by law, and that the Supreme Court can be marginalized. " but then you wrote: "Every citizen of Israel must be given access to a State-funded public school. However, by virtue of State funding, the State can and ought to stipulate core curriculum, values, and standards of equality in admissions that it believes are essential to its interests." This is exactly what is not acceptable to Jews...we will not tolerate any interference in our education, and that includes mandating what we will and will not teach. You miss the point that your "solution" is exactly the same as the high court`s "solution." I assure you, this will not succeed. You didn`t study history, for it clearly shows that being a Jew without Torah is not possible. Even so, the state of Israel is proof. No country is plagued with so many problems as Israel, and sadly, they are all entirely self-inflicted, and all entirely avoidable and unnecessary. I have a different suggestion for you and all the Israelis who have decided it`s possible to be a Jew without Torah. Come learn Torah with us and reclaim your Jewish heritage. You will soon come to understand the purpose of life and experience the joy of Torah. You will then be able to live at peace with your neighbors and Israel will prosper tremendously, both materially and spiritually. Through this, you will stop hating yourselves and you will stop discriminating against Jews, and we will therefore be able to find jobs. You should know, many qualified Jewish people live in Israel, but we are unable to get jobs because of the institutionalized policies of anti-Jewish discrimination engendered by the state. While many of our brethren will continue to learn Torah full-time, as this is the purpose of a Jew in this world, many Jews will also happily work to support them. However, the hatred and discrimination against us must end, otherwise you must accept responsibility for your own problems. If it weren`t for anti-Jewish discriminatory policies, which the Israelis endorse, approve, and sustain, indeed, many more Jews would be working in Israel.
Sam, Israel, Jun 23 2010 1:17:00:000PM

Education and survival
We have the same problem with education in the US, namely that we fail to teach a curriculum that makes our children competitors in the world job market. Any group, no matter how large, no matter how motivated, must understand that the State is responsible for creating minimal standards in order for its students to be considered well-rounded and educated in the classical sense. Someone recently said that if Israel is destroyed it will be from the inside. Think about that and come together. Michael, Los Angeles
Michael Schloss, USA, Jun 21 2010 11:05:00:000PM

core curriculum
I share the view expressed here but would ask: How do you square the right for "Anyone who has a problem with any of the above criteria can choose to send their child to a school of their choice, knowing that in doing so he or she will receive no State funds" with the requirement "that they become finacially responsible or contributing members of society"? Freedom of education to refuse state funds should not allow anyone to educate children to become parasites on the society when they don`t have skills to be gainfully employed. After all, the State will not simply forget these who are poverty strikken for lack of employable skills. So, it seems that the State has a right and a responsibility to demand a core education even from those who want to pursue their own Torah curriculum. It is time to limit the parasitism of "torato umanuto" Judaism for the very sake of Torah. One should not (as Maimonides teaches) use the Torah as a crutch to avoid economic responsibility.
Tzvi Marx, Holland, Jun 21 2010 6:59:00:000AM

Roots of this problem
It is clear that policies carried on for decades concerning haredim failed. The Emmanuel case is only the last one of a long list. This failure goes together with other political failures, f.i. in foreign policies. All of them stem from one big point: icapacity of all politicians to imagine a big picture and give to Israelis a future view. The excess of pragmatism, lack of social IQ, too much compliance to citizens` mood, instead of leading them, are concrete obstacles to settling this and other fundamental issues.
Alberto, Italy, Jun 20 2010 10:02:00:000AM

Undermining democracy
Hartman makes many valid points about how the Israeli government OUGHT to be allocating its resources to various communities in an equitable manner. But his claim that such a fair and balanced policy would be acceptable to the Haredi community seems dissociated from reality. People who believe in theocracy (in this case, rule by Halacha, or Jewish Shari`ah law)rather than democracy are not about to give up their goals just because a sensible government treats everyone equally. Religious extremist will always demand more. And with God on their side, they are not about to quietly accept equal treatment under the law.
Zvi Swerdlove, Israel, Jun 20 2010 8:37:00:000AM

Supreme Court ruling
In 1954, the USSC issued the 9-0 opinion in Brown vs. Board of Education. It was the first in a series of decisions that attempted to change social policy and assist this country in defining the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the Constitution. However, 56 years later, we have segregated schools and segregated communities. Courts can sent standards of conduct - they can not and should not legislate. Every time I read a court ruling which affirms or tears down social policy, I am left with two thoughts: 1. Politicians are elected to advance social policy and they generally fail. 2. Abraham Lincoln was our greatest president, but, his efforts remain incomplete. We aren`t going to have another A. Lincoln and leaving the difficult issues to the supreme court (in both countries) is a cop-out for the citizens and a failure of the underlying political systems our constitutions created. Peter Sackett
Peter Sackett, USA, Jun 19 2010 9:23:00:000PM

values
But what values will the state funded school teach? We have seen in the last few years the failure of the ministry of education -we have seen the crime and sex offences spiral in the youth and as for basic Jewish values,so called minimum-where is that taught at a level of appreciation by pupils? And what about the arab pupils?They will share the same curriculum as other schools or they will also learn Torah as we learn about the Koran?
michael, israel, Jun 18 2010 3:15:00:000PM


Name one liberal democracy that exists today apart from Israel where parents are imprisoned for choosing to send their children to a school of their choice. None. Everything else is commentary
Marc, , Jun 18 2010 11:28:00:000AM

Thanks, but don`t leave out the ethnic prejudice
Rabbi Hartman, Thank you very much for this article and your important points. You have understandably put aside the hot-button topic of Jewish ethnic prejudice to address other, underlying issues about Israeli society and government. However, as someone whose husband and children are Sephardim, I cannot dismiss the Ashkenazic prejudice against Sephardim as an important feature of this case and all it represents. It is part of the religious task in Israel as well as the diaspora to respect and honor Jewish diversity. (PS My husband, who is also Israeli, agrees with your basic solution.)
Rabbi Julie H. Danan, U.S.A., Jun 17 2010 11:36:00:000PM

Haredi School Fight Undermines Israeli Democracy
You would have to apply the same rules to education in the Arab sector. Making sure those schools educational system doesn`t "undermines its (Israels`) existence" will be as difficult if not more so.
S. Davidovics, USA, Jun 17 2010 7:16:00:000PM

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